Critical Hit - The Bay Area Dungeons and Dragons Community

The Dream of a Burning Girl :: RE: Next game

Author: Hoosh
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:51 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 247

Jawohl!

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: UsaSatsui
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:25 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

I should make something clear, actually: My DMing philosophy is that the players are heroes, and should be expected to act as such. I play the villians. Heroes don't always do the honorable thing, heroes don't always play the rules, but at the end of the day, they do what's right, because it's right.

That's why I don't allow evil PCs. If the group is a heroic group, evil players get in the way of that goal.
_________________
"You can have my DC 30 wand when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

-Brainio

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: UsaSatsui
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:23 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

Quote:

The problem with alignment: good vs. alignment: evil is that the spectrum of morality cannot be summed up on a two page spread in our player's handbook.

But it is.

It's clear and obvious that it's not the complete be-all and end-all explanation of concepts philosophers have debated for ages. I'm not going to argue that.

But in game terms, Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos are clear and well-defined forces in the universe, and they are defined as they are in the book. That doesn't mean that's how you define them in real life. I never try and apply real life to D&D. It doesn't end well.

The problem I've seen in a lot of groups is that people take a view of law and good that's far stricter than what it is. Every time I hear "That's not what a lawful person would do", I cringe.

Quote:

Evil characters can form bonds like any other and even value their comrade's life over their own. Evil characters, especially those of intelligence, can find value in good characters and value in sticking around with them even when their immediate interests are not followed. Evil characters can have weaknesses that their comrades, either good or evil, help fulfill, giving those characters immense value.

But Evil characters form those bonds on a personal level. Evil doesn't mean you have no friends, it means that when the going gets tough, you probably wish your friends well and take off...you may feel -bad- about it, but you don't lose much sleep. New friends are easy to find. You certainly wouldn't go out of your way for a stranger (like a Good person would).

Quote:

Even if somewhere along the story line there comes a breaking point due to irreconcilable role-play reasons, it should make for a very good story.

Not in my experience. The "story" usually boils down to an interparty squabble when the evil person does something unmistakably evil and completely indefensible, and the party either has to defend the person anyways (because they have the PC shirt on) and become evil themselves, or do something else to break up the party. It becomes metagame justification, hurt feelings, and a whole lot of unfun.

I'll admit it can make a great story, but it makes for a much better game when everyone is on the same page. Just look at OOtS. Belkar is a great character, but I don't think anyone would want to play with him.

Most of the other comments can be summed up with my first point: In game terms, acts are evil or they aren't. Fitting an evil PC into a good-aligned group means trouble...at the very least, it means that player isn't on the same page as the rest of the players.
_________________
"You can have my DC 30 wand when you pry it from my cold, dead hands!"

-Brainio

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: walkstheplanes
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:27 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

merripen wrote:

None of these quasi-definitions should make the decision for a player.

Alcohol and peer pressure are the best decision makers.
_________________
"Nipples. Many shapes, many sizes. Some on my back!" -Tom Servo

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: merripen
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:00 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

walkstheplanes wrote:

I see chaotic evil involving either complete psychotic tendencies or malice for malice's sake.

I feel like the axis of law/chaos is actually making reference to social order, rather than psychological orientation. Chaotic Good does "good", even when it directly violates established social law. Chaotic Evil does "evil" while discarding reverence to those same laws - and in this game, often without knowledge of those laws at all (aka monsters).

The established system doesn't easily allow for Alignment: Crazy. So whatever.

But, again, these are always just fuzzy guidelines. None of these quasi-definitions should make the decision for a player.
_________________
I've still got my hammer and causality's dick.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: walkstheplanes
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:06 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

Doing acts of good in itself is ultimately a selfish act. To satisfy one's desires, benevolent or no, is a selfish thing (though I do agree with the coupling of intent and selfishness being a factor in alignment, I'll get to that later). There is very little differentiating Good and Lawful Good in the sense that both will actively set their goals towards the betterment of others (as well as themselves), with regional or religion doctrines perhaps being one of the factors that give a character a more lawful bent (ie. peace loving hippy vs. peace loving policeman).

Neutrality strikes me, in general, as prioritizing one's own personal goals with no benevolent or malicious intent or action, and generally favoring companions who will view him with cordiality vs hostility.

I'd say when it comes to the two evils, neutral evil involves selfish acts (as Sharp Eleven pointed out) with complete (or mostly complete) disregard for others. I see chaotic evil involving either complete psychotic tendencies or malice for malice's sake.

With each view, I'd avoid black and white polarities, though. Evil characters may do people favors that have no ulterior motives, neutral people will travel the alignments as per their personalities and opportunities, and goodly people will come to situations where their ideals will be stretched, and they make mistakes as much as any person.
_________________
"Nipples. Many shapes, many sizes. Some on my back!" -Tom Servo

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: merripen
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:00 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

Maybe it really is that simple.

I guess I just keep looking for a definition that excludes misunderstood or disturbed or quick-tempered characters. You can be lawful-good and still get mad. You aren't evil just because daddy missed your little league games.

Evil is selfish, for sure. Evil is also cruel for its own amusement. Merciless when mercy would get the job done. Cruel, corrupt, cold-hearted. Evil characters will kill, sacrifice, manipulate, and generally use other humans as stepping stones to satisfy their own goals.

So I guess selfish kinda does cover it. Perhaps I just think too much.
_________________
I've still got my hammer and causality's dick.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: Sharp Eleven
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:41 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

I really think evil is about making decisions with a complete disregard of the well-being of others.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: merripen
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:35 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

You used to be such a conversationalist.
_________________
I've still got my hammer and causality's dick.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: Sharp Eleven
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:33 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

Merripen.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: merripen
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:29 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

I don't think you can base the [extremely] general spectrum of Good/Evil alignments on nonstatic things like regional laws - there needs to be a more definitive definition that covers everyone everywhere.

Selfishness is a good start, but it needs to be distilled down a bit further, I think. The Evil alignment needs to cover everything from the selfish adventurer who does good without caring for those he helps, solely seeking profit or personal gain, all the way over to cold calculating murderers.

Although, I think it is safe to exclude sociopathic serial killers and deviants that can be categorized as insane - they sorta exist outside of those alignment guidelines, or maybe in the space that used to be Chaotic Evil. So based on that... what is evil all about? Can we put it into a single sentence?
_________________
I've still got my hammer and causality's dick.

Angband Alliance :: RE: Lan Night: Dawn of War

Author: merripen
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:23 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 6

Advising Dog is the greatest antagonizing plague this board has faced since merripen.

But it's so difficult to stay mad at him.

Unlike that other guy...
_________________
I've still got my hammer and causality's dick.

Rules, Tactics, & Role-play :: RE: Matters of Alignment

Author: Sharp Eleven
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:08 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 14

Within a culture, within a country, within a city, you are inundated with the morals of that immediate area. Those that live within that system who go against it do so for a reason. Breaking a law can be due to necessity of survival, because the law is unjust, because of indifference....

I'd argue, that stealing, killing, betraying...that sort of evil boils down to selfishness or lunacy, exempting such radical anarchist personalities. I'd say that much crime happens due to necessity of survival, which turns to selfishness.

When you live in a kingdom of laws similar to our own, for what other reason than selfishness or lunacy would you have to worship an evil god that condones criminal acts? Perhaps you want power and worship a deity that may give it to you. Selfishness.

Much of goodness is attributed to selfishness as well. Much of good and evil grows from the same origin.

Selfishness may be too vague a term in this respect.

Angband Alliance :: RE: Lan Night: Dawn of War

Author: AdvisingDog
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:01 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 6

The Dream of a Burning Girl :: RE: Next game

Author: Bloodred
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:59 pm (GMT -8)
Topic Replies: 247

Hell, I'll even be there.

Its nice to not be sick anymore.